ABOUT THIS EPISODE.
In a new podcast episode released by the Ontario Disability Employment Network (ODEN) to mark National Disability Employment Awareness Month (NDEAM) in North America, the Valuable 500 leaders declare that businesses can no longer make excuses for not fostering disability inclusion.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT.
Dean Askin: You can’t spell inclusion without a D, a podcast that explores the power of inclusion and why disability is an important part of the workplace diversity and inclusion conversation produced by the Ontario Disability Employment Network with your host, Jeanette Campbell and Dean Askin. Hello, and wherever you’re listening from Welcome to this episode of You can’t spell inclusion without a D. This is Episode Seven. I’m Dean Askin here along with my co host, Jeanette Campbell.
Jeannette Campbell: Dean make that year excited co host Jeanette Campbell, because I’ve really been looking forward to talking to our two guests, Caroline Casey and Paul Polman, and getting their perspective on the state of disability inclusion and how much it’s driving the future of work in 2022.
Dean Askin: Well, you know, I’ve been looking forward to this conversation to Jeanette because I’m always referring to research by the valuable 500 and pieces IRA. And now I actually get to have a conversation with the two top people at the helm of this initiative, one that’s globally leading thought change and driving your conversation about an action on disability, inclusion and business.
Jeannette Campbell: And think about it here we are in the third decade of the 21st century. And finally, disability inclusion in business and employment is being talked about more than ever before, and it’s starting to drive the future of work.
Dean Askin: You know, a TD economics study back in 2009 teen pulled no punches about that. Its author stated in no uncertain terms, businesses that don’t expand their talent searches and proactively recruit people who have a disability are going to get left behind in the years ahead.
Jeannette Campbell: We had a great conversation about that one with the report’s authors and the executive vice president of TD Bank Group. That was an episode two of the show.
Dean Askin: Have a listen if you haven’t heard that one yet. But right now, settling with another cup of coffee, or tea for this conversation with the founder of the valuable 500 Caroline Casey, and its chair, Paul Polman. It’s getting to the end of the workday where they are they’re talking to us from the UK. Caroline is the businesswoman and activist behind the valuable 500 that launched at the 2019 World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. It’s the world’s largest CEO, collective and business movement for disability inclusion.
Jeannette Campbell: Caroline Casey is going to tell us more about the valuable 500 in a minute. But first, I’d like to tell listeners about her. She’s an Ashoka Fellow, an award winning social entrepreneur who’s committed to driving lasting change through business for people globally who have a disability. Caroline’s also an Eisenhower Fellow had TED speaker, a past advisor for the global Clinton initiative. And again, the founder of the valuable 500. Caroline, welcome to the show.
Caroline Casey: Well, thank you for having me. And I always think you’re the one we read our BIOS you should put in there. Troublemaker, really good dancer, not a great cook, and adventurer. And I have to say, definitely somebody who loves being around people who think things are possible. There’s no doubt that right at the heart of I think who I am. And the people around me are people who actually put their mind to doing something and don’t. Don’t give up until it’s done. So yeah, that’s a little bit about me.
Jeannette Campbell: We’re thrilled to have you and feel like we are in great company.
Dean Askin: We are and we do Paul Polman, and welcome to you as well to the show.
Paul Polman: Well, thank you, Dean and Jeannette, for having us. I really look forward to it. And more importantly, thank you for shining some light on this important topic. Better now than ever.
Dean Askin: Now, Paul is the Chair of the Valuable 500. He’s a business leader. Paul was the global CEO of Unilever for over a decade. He’s also a climate and equality campaigner, and co author of the recently published and critically acclaimed book net positive, how courageous companies thrive by giving more than they take also helped develop the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals.
Jeannette Campbell: That’s particularly relevant to the conversation we’re gonna have in this episode. And that’s because those 17 goals are an integral part of the UN’s 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development and disability inclusion is embedded in many of the Sustainable Development Goals.
Dean Askin: So now you know why both Jeanette and I are jazzed about having Caroline and Paul on this episode of You can’t spell inclusion without a D and getting their take on the current goal. It will state of things with disability inclusion.
Jeannette Campbell: But before we delve right into that state of things, Caroline, for listeners who may not be familiar with the Valuable 500, can you tell us a bit this initiative and why it was so important to you to found the Valuable 500.
Caroline Casey: So, Yasmin Murat, one of your fellow country, women, has a great expression, the expression around Nothing about us, without us, very important disability line. And I love what she says it’s simply should be nothing without us. And in a way, this is where we’re at. We’re at this incredible moment in time, where I think this conversation about disability inclusion, making the case for disability inclusion in business, I think we’re done. You know, we used to talk about the moral case about what was right in business, and then it was the business case and have to convince the stakeholders, but I think we’re coming full circle around again, we’re entering a decade of real disruption in our in our world and how complicated it is. And we have to come full circle back to human business, there’s no longer conversation, does business have a role to play? Of course it does. It’s the most powerful force on this planet. This state of disability exclusion is one of the least known in the world. I mean, first of all, disability at the moment is 1.3 billion people. With a mother and a father, we’re talking 54% of our global economy. And yet the exclusion of disability, which we all know too well, so I’m not going to go through it all. But we know what it is 50 or 50%, less likely to get a job 50% more likely to experience poverty, and look like even in COVID, six out of the 10 people who acquired who died of COVID in the UK. So I mean, we can go on about all the all of the the exclusion, horrific stats that exist, but the solution is what I’m interested in. And if business is the most powerful force in this planet, it needs to have a role at the table. Okay. But disability has been on the poor cousin of the inclusion agenda has sat on the outskirts of business, it’s been that outlier, and we’ve never seen accelerated change. And that’s just not okay. Inclusion is either all for everyone or not at all. And you cannot have an ala carte approach to to disability inclusion, the content of ALCAR, post inclusion, and business needs to be responsible for that. So the valuable 500 was formed to create a coalition or a collective community of business who were accountable and committed to working together. And this is the thing of working together to end disability exclusion by its practices. And what makes us very different is we didn’t say we wanted to be inspiring, what we wanted is to put that action, and that accountability into the hands of the most important people in business, inclusive business is created by the leaders. So what the Valuable 500 was saying, you CEOs, you leaders, have a role to play. And what that was making them do is promising us and delivering on board level or leadership commitment on disability inclusion in their business, putting their their signature to it, leading with their voice. And then by doing that, you’ve got 500 Now 500 of the world’s most important CEOs in the most important brands representing 22 million people who will activate that change to their collective mass.
Jeannette Campbell: Caroline, sorry for the delay in my response. I’m just listening to your first answer. It’s the energy, the power, the passion, the commitment and the importance of what you’re doing and what the Valuable 500 is doing is just coming through so loud and clear. And thank you for that response. And and, Paul, I just want to ask you, why is it so important to you to be chair of this initiative?
Paul Polman: Well, it was no doubt in my mind When Caroline was looking for someone not only to chair it, but but to get the business community and these numbers together, that I could help her and had a responsibility to say yes, I mean, this is probably the biggest initiative, that collective initiative that you find in the private sector 500 of the biggest companies, trillions of dollars in turnover and market cap millions of people in employment. That’s how you drive change at scale. At a moment in history, frankly, as we see with climate change, or of food security or many of the other challenges that it’s difficult to rally together. You know, I always like to African proverb that alone, we can go fast, but together we can go far. And here it’s a matter of going far now. The I was humbled enough to be Part of the high level panel to develop the sustainable development goals that you refer to that were approved at the UN in September 2015. And they have as a simple objective to not leave anybody behind. I’ve always firmly believed in everything I tried to do that if we don’t protect these basic human values of dignity and respect, or equity, or compassion that the world frankly wouldn’t function, we erode humanity by violating these principles. And that’s why I’ve always fought gender, Unilever was a gender balanced organisation, I only accepted a job if I could take a gender balanced port. Father has been an LGBT champion He for She board members of the UN, women, and many other things. And unfortunately, even in my efforts over the years, I have to admit that I probably also neglected disability, despite having started with my wife, one of our bigger foundations in Africa, that Kilimanjaro, blind trust, blind trust, which is now in eight countries, and has about 20,000 visually impaired children in schools, trying to unlock their literacy for life. So it’s a very easy thing to talk to business people now about the economic imperative, you’re talking 15% of the population, seven to 8 trillion in spending power, we can really show that as you refer to before, Senator view, if you neglect that, that group, it’s very difficult to get an engaged workforce or to be able to design and develop your products, whatever industry you might want to be in to be successful. And we see that everywhere. But there’s also the social and moral reason that comes with it. Where we have an obligation, I believe, to ensure that we create this inclusive environment. So that’s why I’m honored to to chair it and be part of it and mighty proud to see what Caroline in a relatively short period of time, has been able to pull together and deliver and it’s starting to take hold the CEOs, we’re starting to see the changes coming through. And that’s obviously ultimately what counts. It’s the impact that we’re after.
Caroline Casey: When I do I’d have to say Paul wasn’t really given a chance I I chased for Paul down, he was that he was the leader I wanted, you’ve got to remember before the Valuable 500, we had never had one CEO publicly stand for disability. Can you believe that in 2017, I mean, I had to ride a horse across Colombia to the main stage and One Young World to find Paul. And I was not letting him go, you’ve got to remember he was a leader that stood alone, when we when he started to speak about sustainability. And I think, Paul, you got what I was trying to do, because it was like, you’re like this lone person. When people think now you’re What are you talking about? And so for me, I’d watch what Paul had done with sustainability. And I was like, you’ve got to stand on the shoulders of giants, right? You’ve got to see what works before what you’ve done, rather than trying to recreate the wheel. So I thought, What if Paul could do for sustainability? Could we not do it for disability? So yeah, I wasn’t gonna let him go. We’re very lucky and very proud. Oh, well,
Dean Askin: Yeah, you’re both very passionate about what you’re doing. And, and you know, and time, speaking of time, you’ve kind of mentioned this, I want to jump in here and ask, and you’ll whoever wants to answer a question or answer first, feel free to jump in. But I want to get your perspective on. And Caroline, you sort of touched on this a little bit already. But I, how would you describe the state of disability inclusion in business? You know, in here we are we in 2022? I mean, how much progress have we made compared to even say, just five or 10 years ago?
Caroline Casey: Well, I could say I’m an activist for 22 years, I worked for Accenture as a management consultant. And at that time, I was in the disability closet, you know, because I thought if I own my disability, and I spoke about it openly, I wouldn’t have the same chances. The opportunities and so you know, I, I think that was the state of the world 22 years ago. So let’s go to now. Well, firstly, I’m myself and Paul have been at One Young World and that’s where we are currently. And yesterday, we had a panel where we were speaking about representation and the creative industries. And I was sitting in between Daniel Durant’s, who played the character of Leo in CODA and coda, won an Oscar this year, and it is the first time ever we had a film, which was had subtitles in every cinema. It was shown him and it won an Oscar, you know, and this is, this is a really important moment. And then on the other side of me was Sinead Burke, an Irish disability activists, person of small stature who had been on the front cover of Vogue only two years ago. I’m the first person of small stature to walk the Met Gala. So just let’s just for a moment take that was a conversation speaking to a room of two and a half 1000 people on the leadership stage about what they can do for disability in business. So Have things changed? Yes. Have we come out of the closet? Yes. But then, on the other side, I want to say a few things that are terrifying. In the Footsie 100, we did a piece of research with tortoise media that has said that we have no person with a disability identifying in senior leadership position or upwards. That is that that’s just inconceivable, right. We also know that we have a situation where it four out of five of the C-suite or senior leaders who have a disability are not disclosing it, and 7% already declare. So the issue of disability at the highest levels of power is still seen as something less than so in some ways, there’s still uncomfortable and fear that existed for me 20 years ago is still there. Okay. But what’s different and what’s exciting, is the younger generation talking about disability pride, we’re starting to see inclusive design be more mainstream, we’re hearing about accessibility and captioning. And through COVID, that had to be something that was mainstream, not just for somebody, or just for a small niche market, we are starting to see D and disability in the diversity and inclusion agenda conversations being equalised, we’re starting to see investment behind it are starting to co speak. So what’s important is the Valuable 500 could not have existed five years ago, just to be really clear it could not have existed. So for a moment, we need to mark what’s important 500 companies have stood up representing 22 million employees, and that is 64 sectors in 41 countries. That is a testament is a testament to a new appetite. And what the most important thing is, I refuse to keep finding problems for every solution. I own want to find solutions for the problem. I don’t want to hear how difficult it is for self ID because of legislation. Well, let’s build cultures of trust and go around legislation. So it is we can’t keep navel gazing about the problems but finding people are willing to come together and in coalition’s like the Valuable 500 safety in numbers, because fear steel is at the base of the problems of the systemic change that exists. And if we don’t talk about things, we can’t solve the problems, but now is releasing the energy of young people with the attention of our C-suite and our CEOs. And I do think we can actually move forward. And let’s celebrate the moments and the winds, they might be small, but they add up to something more than ever was before.
Paul Polman: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more if I may add a few lines. But I think Caroline has hit the key points. But I just want to simply say the starting point is not good for the present more likely to be unemployed 10% More likely, 10 times more likely to experience violence. Half the police killings in the US are people with disabilities, difficult to get to the polls and and support the democratic process. COVID hasn’t made it easier would be my second point. The first ones to be laid off the first ones to see the devastating effects of the cost increases we’re not seeing in food, or energy. It’s always the poor and the disadvantaged, who pay a disproportionate price. But what makes it more difficult for people with disability is that the disability intersects with the larger systems of oppression, and racism and poverty or other things that we’ve seen especially come out during the COVID crisis. And, you know, I would want to use this opportunity anyway to give our sympathy for the terrible killings. Again, that happened in Canada this time. And some of the violence that you also suffer. They’re really all are a direct result of poverty and exclusion, and having an economic system that doesn’t fit for everybody. On the positive side. There’s definitely more awareness, I think it has become a silent discussion in the boardrooms. But still too many companies that read or not published about it, not talk about it, as Caroline says, and frankly, not take the more courageous actions that are needed to really deal with these issues once and for all in a decisive way. I’m positively antastic about the results that we get on the initiatives that we’ve done. The Valuable 500 collective now is a wonderful opportunity to give these CEOs more courage. Collectively, they always become more courageous I find in the initiatives are involved in and sharing best practices so good to see that nearly 90% feel that they’re making progress on their commitments, at least amongst the Valuable 500 group that they see improved. months on their strategies on disability first as what happened before COVID that they are able to make some changes. The first one is usually r&d, recruiting or interviewing processes, the way they advertise their inclusiveness as employers, and an actively starting to seek the candidates with disability. And that’s obviously encouraging to see more so in Europe, perhaps slightly lesser extent to the US from where I’m sitting, and doing so much in Africa, which is one of my prime focuses. Now, it’s a lot to do. So I can tell you, we have won the lottery ticket of life by having been born in this part of the world. And that’s still the case today.
Jeannette Campbell: Paul, and, and Caroline, everything that you’re speaking to about this concept of collective impact, and how things are changing. And Caroline, you know, I really like this idea of, I mean, I love anybody who says that there’s too much navel gazing going on. And people hear me quote, sometimes, and I say, a little less conversation, a little more action. And, you know, when you talk about this, the historical changes, and you talk about the intersectionality. Paul, that you’re that you’re referencing, when you talk about the impacts of things like global poverty, climate change, the global economic state that we’re in, we talk about the the people being assigned these these spaces of vulnerability, and being somewhat kept in there. And a lot of that his is, you know, going back to Caroline, when you were quoting some of those numbers about even from a leadership level, there’s, there’s a reluctance, or reluctance to self identify, and, and, and a feeling of not not being, I don’t want to put words into anybody’s thoughts. But for me, it translates into a feeling of it’s still not, it’s still not safe. And we actually had a an article here that was published just a couple of weeks ago, I think it was like August 2 in The Globe and Mail, which is one of Canada’s national newspapers. And, and it was talking about a piece that says, you know, despite the labor shortage, and so despite this incredible need workers who have a disability, still getting left behind, and it was a woman named Marco Bock and she founded the Canadian Association of professionals with disabilities. She said, and I quote, they’ve said, people with disabilities are this emerging group in the workplace, every decade since the 80s. So what’s your take on on a comment like that?
Caroline Casey: Oh, okay. Can I just, this is where you’re gonna hear my frustration, how on earth, two things. One is none of us are defined by one element of our identity, I get so frustrated with this. I’m a woman, I am over 50 I have a non biological mother, I have a disability. I mean, I could go on. I’m multiple labels, and I fit three diversity categories right now. So one of the been age and ever knew that I was going to be considered over 50. So this idea that disabled people, and that’s all we are, it’s it just infuriates me, it is part of what we are. And it is a extraordinary insight into innovation. Can I just say that we seem to forget the different lived experience is drives innovation and drives insight. And I know I oversee this, but tax messaging was designed for people who are hearing impaired, we all use it inclusive design. remote controls are designed for people, for blind people to watch television, you know, why don’t we see that difference is a point of differentiation, which is something that brands need and innovation needs. Right? Paul will tell you that. The second point is she is so right, we’ve been talking about this emerging group have talent, but what people are not willing to actually own we cannot increase the numbers of people with disabilities into employment. If we do not understand that value that I spoken to. If we do not understand that people with disabilities and their families currently are 54% of our global economy. Now, what business wants to keep that business out? I mean, I’m serious. conservatively, we’re saying it’s 13 trillion. We need to stop this conversation. What about, you know, government’s getting people with disabilities into business, if we’re not linking it to the market space, to the innovation and to the insight that it drives it? That’s why we call it the Valuable 500. Okay, we are valuable, and we are not they and you’re part of this group all the time and if You talk of any other community, whether it’s LGBTQI, or race or socio economic background or faith, disability is part of all of them. Yeah. Like so. When I talk about disability, it just infuriates me. It’s like when we talk about gender, what about disabled? Women, LGBTQ versus voting amongst that? Why are we not interconnecting all of this into this space? Because what is good for one should be good for all. And so she’s absolutely right, I totally understand her frustration. But we cannot talk about employment, if we do not connect it to the value that we bring. And secondly, if we don’t even know the employees are currently in our business 80% of disabilities invisible, I dare our companies of the 22 million, I can guarantee you between 12 to 15%, of that cohort, have lived experience of disability and are hiding it. Why? Because they don’t feel safe to your point. So let’s get over ourselves and create cultures where we would actually see the truth of our employees, and then tell me why we’re not employing more. Obviously, I’ve had too much coffee today, I will stop talking,
Paul Polman: When you have said that you have it. But you know, when I was running Unilever, and I wanted to strengthen our maternity policies, I didn’t decide the policy, I asked the people that were involved, women that were on maternity leave, to develop the strategy, when we were looking at, you know, flexible compensation, depending on the lifestyle that people had, on what age, what age profile and where they needed the help, we asked those people to do that. So and you get much better conclusions. But somehow, the under representation that we have in society of the people with disabilities in the in the areas that we want to get them to be more represented establishes damaging cultural norms, I think that perpetuate the exclusion of those people who we tried to make part of the system in the first place, both in their professional and personal capabilities. So you know, it’s it’s amazing how many myths there are. And I also had to overcome them. We should not be ashamed of them. But oh, it’s more costly to employ someone with disability. Oh, it’s, it’s they are less productive. They’re likely less loyal. You know, they take a lot of your time that goes away from building the business. I mean, I’ve heard all of that they’re sick more often. And anytime you look at any of these Mithen, and do you believe in data and science, which I know some people don’t when it comes to climate change, but at least here, I hope that we can show that we have the facts that all these myths are, indeed myths, that they are not right. So on the one hand, our own, what people might call the softer by country of our own low expectations, our own self biasness, the inability to treat everybody in their full agency and make them part of that solution and accept what that is, you know, one of my friends that was is blind. And we had a dinner for the blind here in the UK to sensitize more people. And so I said, I said, Why don’t you apply to Unilever? And he said, I don’t because I’m happy what I’m doing. I said, I don’t want you to necessarily work in Unilever, I just want you to apply to Unilever, because I was heavily involved in the blind and deaf mind. And I felt that the company had taken a lot of actions to make it easier for people to apply. He came back with two or three pages, and it wasn’t happy reading. And we were, you know, quite far from where I thought we were, let’s simply because we didn’t ask the people involved themselves, to go through this and bring it so it goes back to basic human values at the end of the day. And, and be sure that we don’t only invite them and have a seat at the table, and like so many other things in the sustainable development goals that we talked, but that ultimately these people own the table. And that’s only the point that we can expect that we will progress and overcome some of these preconceived notions or unconscious biasness that are probably the biggest one step. That’s still getting away.
Caroline Casey: From wondering who’s doing the inviting the people? This is my question, who has the right to write the invitation? So what I think is just when we have some sense, I wish there were more leaders who are willing to do what you do, Paul, because I think it’s not being frightened that we don’t have the solutions. Yesterday, Kate, at One Young World, one of the cofounders stood on the stage and was took accountability for the fact that there wasn’t a captioning in the main stage. And within the conference said we will do better that matters. You don’t have to have all the answers but own the mistakes. And I think the gap between resolving disability inclusion or making it actually happen is willing intention to make mistakes, and willing intention to keep going and willing to return shouldn’t ask? Well, we don’t know and understand and not shame people, when people make mistakes. I think there’s, it’s not just even the fear of disabilities, the fear of causing offence and the fear of getting it wrong and the fear of being sued. There’s a lot of fear in there. And I think when people admit that they don’t know and ask with the intention of learning, and take accountability when they don’t get it, right, I think that’s where we see permission to try, right? And that’s all we can ask for, and then build on what works and learn from what doesn’t.
Dean Askin: I mean, it really is becoming a more of a driving force than it ever has, it seems. So I want to I want to ask, and again, whoever, you know, whoever wants to jump in? I mean, how much do you think disability inclusion? is driving the future of work now? Or does it kind of depend on what part of the world we’re talking about?
Paul Polman: I personally don’t think it’s the netspot of the world. And if you talk Europe and the US for a second in other parts of the world, there are different challenges, we can talk separately. But one of the things I did before COVID, I took my leadership team to Perkins School of the blind, in Boston, Massachusetts, and we talked to the IT person who was blind himself, is born blind. He knew more about it than any of us in the room. That night, we went to the baseball game from the Red Sox, we didn’t know about baseball at all. I mean, it’s not a sport we grew up with, we have blind or deaf blind people, go with us and mentor us and explain the game very much a numbers game. They were into it, and they could explain the game better to us than anybody else. It just opened our eyes. You know, Helen Keller went to Perkins, and spoke six languages was deaf and blind, she was always as I must be horrible to be blind. And our answer is always the same. It’s not being blind, or that is horrible. It’s the having eyes and not being able to see, which is the problem. And I think that is for most of us. What I find increasingly is that people with disabilities, which I personally like to call disabilities, and and many might not agree with me there, but that these people are much better able to deal with this environment that we now live in that some people call the Fuka, wealth, volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. From day one. When they were born, they had to deal with uncertainties to figure out who are the system around them, and how to function in it. I think these people are much better placed than anybody else, right now in any of these companies, in my opinion, to deal with the challenges that we face, so it should be their time. On top of that was COVID, we’ve shown some certain flexibilities on how we can work and where we can work, that should be to their advantage. And finally, what I’ve seen, although it’s difficult for us to adapt, technology is growing very fast. And if I now see what is available, also for people with disabilities, often that puts them in a better position than people that don’t provide the other don’t use or leverage these corrected corrective technology. So I think it’s time that we open our minds. And this is why this is like anything, it’s a human transformation that needs to happen to make the system’s transformation possible. And as Caroline talked about, we need to spend more time on on getting it in people’s minds, the people that are able to open those doors need to be given the key and this is what the Valuable 500 is trying to do.
Caroline Casey: And from from my perspective, I think is changing the future of work. Yeah, I do think so. Actually, when Elon Musk came out of his disability, owned his Aspergers, he’s kind of running. He’s kind of one of the most successful people in business, when Richard Branson talks about his Dyslexia has been something that has really fueled a different way of thinking. When we see some of our greatest tech talent, often, really owning their neurodiversity. Do I think there’s an opportunity here? Yeah, I do. And I think Paul’s absolutely right, in a world that is, you know, very different, very difficult. And we do need different perspectives, and those different perspectives or different ways in which we work with our environment. In a way I kind of feel like it’s the big, you know, it’s we need to kind of get the big reveal of the talent that’s in there and people’s lived experiences and owning it, and then you’re rewriting the story, because I can definitely tell you lived experience of disability is contributing hugely to our global economy, but we don’t see it. But then on the other hand, disability, people are not getting that chance because there was barriers in front of them to reach their potential, but there’s to education or whether to getting that first chance to get into a job. So it’s for those of us who are in the privilege of where we are, is own our true To remove the barriers and ensure that everybody has the same chance, and I do think that’s where it can change, I will take Paul up on it, he knows I don’t like the word disability because in a way, I feel like it’s skirting around something, I have a disability, it has nothing to be ashamed about, I have a different way of looking at the world, I have a different way of experiencing the world. And finally, finally, 22, or something years later, I came out of that closet, it’s part of me, and I’m proud of it. And so whatever word we use, is a just a different way of experiencing the world. And that is what we’re hoping not just for disability, but for if we want to have real human inclusion, we need to be respectful of all the different ways not just a disability way but all of our ways of living. So I, I kind of feel we are part dean of that new way of work. I hope we are integrated in in connect, interconnected interconnected, are we driving it alone? No. But we are all together, driving a world where we need see University inclusive corporate cultures to create a universally inclusive society. It may be idealistic, but if that’s not what we’re aiming for, I don’t know what we are. Because 50% inclusion is not right.
Jeannette Campbell: I want to talk about that that new way of working for a minute. Now, Caroline, do you think disability inclusion is kind of driving the future of work more now, because of the way things have shifted over the last two years as a result of COVID, you know, the remote working or work from anywhere capability. And businesses managed to make modifications at the drop of a hat. And I use the word modifications there. On our on our very first episode, we had our Federal Minister of employment, workforce development and disability inclusion on the show, Carla quatro, and, you know, she made specific reference to the fact that, you know, we need to get away from using the word accommodation and, you know, modification is, you know, is is the better the better word now, because you just modify the way you do things. So, is this home modified way of working, you know, having an impact on how much disability inclusion is changing the nature of things? Yeah,
Caroline Casey: I think it’s, I think is a great call light. And what we discovered in 17 days, most of our companies were able to adapt to virtual working right. And everybody needed adjustments, accommodations, modifications, right? Okay, so like, why before a COVID, it was a big deal. People disabilities have expensive accommodations, everybody needed them in COVID. So that was one thing. And we learned that if the intentionality was behind it, and if people had a desire to do good, but the most important thing that happened and COVID and I, you know, I think Paul and I will both agree, it’s the intention and the time that we give things that is going to make the change, right? If you can, excuse your way out of things and find reasons for it to be difficult, then you won’t do anything at all. What happened with COVID? Is the system, this intractable immovable business system change, just remember that it changed because it had to win because it wants to. So the question is, how do we get people to want to be part of the change? Well, let me tell you how we do. Every one of us is going to experience disability in our lifetime, you are future proofing the society to which you grow Odin, you are future proofing the businesses to which you engage with. And let us remember by 2030 60% of the wealth in our world will be in the hands of people who are 60 and older. And as we know, when we get older, things don’t work as well as they do. So it is about intentionality, it’s about and quit, you know, deciding that we’re going to do it, not for them. But for all of us, for all of us. And so you got to remember, we’re even talking about disability. It’s not just the person who’s living with a disability, it’s often the mother and the father and sister and a brother who has a sibling who’s involved in that workforce. Remember, disability. 80% is acquired between the ages of 18 and 64. That’s in the workforce. There’s many reasons why, but just let’s get off the fence. Disability is all of our business, all of our business for for the importance for all of our lives, to future proof our society for ourselves and for others. And that’s kind of it and that’s where it should land. It’s about women intention.
Jeannette Campbell: And you know, Caroline, Caroline, I was calling to ask about the state of disability, inclusion and business but instead I’m going to I’m going to jump off of what you’re seeing here because you’re talking about this intentionality, you’re talking about human inclusion, you’re talking about harnessing all of these, this wave of awareness that is coming from so many different places now that people are understanding, or at least the discussion is happening around intersectionality around the ability to modify it around and The fact that the time for excuses is ending has I mean, we know, ended a long time ago. But the curtains that one could hide behind have been pulled back. And so when we think about all of these aspects to disability inclusion, what do you think is the most important thing that business leaders need to understand about it that maybe the don’t?
Caroline Casey: Well, look, you’re talking to one of the best I mean, you’re talking to one of the most impressive business leaders here with Poland. So that question should be with Paul. But what I? And the reason I say that, not because he’s just my boss, but it’s also because truly, the most important thing business leaders, you just need to know unless they have a lived experience. Know what you don’t know. Seriously. I kept like, Do you know what if I’m so concerned when business stages, if they want the cheat, cheat for disability inclusion, they want us to tell them how to do it? How can I tell some of the smartest people in their business or in their industry how to do it? You’re smart people. Bring the people in polls, right? Go into your people, ask your people in the business who are connected to disability, how you can do it better. Ask admit you don’t know. But don’t think that you can walk away from this issue anymore, because it’s your issue to the most important thing a business leader can do. And Paul and I sat on a stage when Peter Grauer, the chair of Bloomberg said, we are not doing enough, I don’t know how to do it might drop permission.
Jeannette Campbell: Wow. And, Paul, as you know what, jumping off of that, what do you think, is the most important thing that business leaders perhaps still don’t understand?
Paul Polman: Well, the first thing that we need to do and continue to do is understand the business leaders because that’s how you change them to put our judgments on them would be the same as them putting judgments on disability, we don’t want to eat away. So we just need to be open here and thought a little bit and it’s a tough time to be a CEO, there are many different balls they have to juggle and, and the situation that they’re now facing with climate change or be at a geopolitical situations, or be it many of the pandemic itself, or many of the other challenges are not making it easy to be a CEO. And probably it absorbs a certain amount of attention. And whilst not excusable. It perhaps goes away from other things. So the first thing you have to really try to get through is the importance of including everybody, when we talked about the Valuable 500 and try to convince the most important CEOs to join the effort. We ended up with 500. But we probably called 700. Let’s just call a spade a spade here. And many of them
Caroline Casey: 1500
Paul Polman: Yeah, but you know, yeah, no, no, I’m
Caroline Casey: You’re so right. You’re absolutely right, I want to make
Paul Polman: them sound that bad. But you know, they have no doubt today is the this year is the year of George Floyd because now it’s all every racial dimension, and I need to focus on that. Or I’m still busy with gender diversity. So you really have to explain to them you cannot do that in an organisation you represent. That often has to be a reflection of society, that you just say this is the time for this group, that group or the other, how do you make it an integrated plan so that each and everybody in your organisation can can rise to their fullest potential, and the disability is actually a overarching, call it an umbrella that permeates all these other groups. So it’s very important to get that into people’s minds. The morality works with some less with others. But there is a moral case that needs to be understood, I always find that is a strong basis for purpose driven businesses. But then there are others that are continuously driven by the myopic focus on shareholder primacy and short term results. And there, you just have to explain this was hard facts that this is a better economic case, which is increasingly easier to make, like there is a very strong economic case now to move to a greener, more sustainable future to attack the issues of climate change. There is also in a very compelling case to be made to move to a more equitable future. companies that understand that will position themselves very well for the future of the institutions. They represent. Companies that don’t I think will increasingly head to the graveyard of dinosaurs, if I may call it that way.
Jeannette Campbell: You know, I had a couple of questions I was going to ask but you’ve covered so many, you know, so many insightful points here. Yeah, Caroline. Well, What do you think is the message that resonates most with business leaders about disability inclusion,
Caroline Casey: I’m gonna go back to something that Paul said. Everybody’s a human being right? Business leaders aren’t machines. Their moms and dads, their sisters and brothers, their, their friends, right? Disabilities everywhere. Every room, I go into every single room that I’ve unbelievably, I’ve had to, I’ve been campaigning for years, I have never ever come out of a room without somebody coming in, I just didn’t realise it was so close to me. And by by not talking about that I wasn’t doing anything, I believe, and it has worked. And I mean, maybe Paul will disagree with me, but I think it is leading with the heart and backing it up with the science and the data and the business case, it is a very fine balance between the human being and the business leader who has to deliver to the shareholder, and they must deliver to the bottom line. Investing in disability is not going to cost without a significant return on investment. It does deliver the it is proven we have the research, but never forget. The leaders of our business are human beings. And as a human being grows older, and we change and we do you know, what am I leaving behind? What is my legacy? So a very clear balance of who I am as a human and what I can do in this privileged position backed up with hard facts and science. That to me, is what I believe that Valuable 500 CEOs have responded to.
Jeannette Campbell: And Paul, jumping off of what Caroline is saying. I’m going to, I’m going to bring us back for a second to the focus of the Valuable 500 initiative for understanding everything correctly. It’s about getting CEOs of global corporations to make sure disability inclusion is on the agenda, understanding that as the name of our podcast, as you can’t have inclusion without a D. But what about the smaller and medium sized enterprises and businesses that are driving the economy here in Canada? Our stats are telling us 97% of businesses or small to medium sized enterprises? How do we get them to follow the lead of these big corporations that are standing alongside you that have committed to disability inclusion? What can we do?
Paul Polman: Yeah, so that is an important part and obviously was the Valuable 500, we had to make a choice. That’s like anything in life, like any good strategy, you have to make choices. And our theory of change is really that if you get the 500 most admirable, probably progressive companies with great leaders to take these courageous decisions and move out of their comfort zone, then you actually can move society, including the SMEs, the SMEs in every country, even in my native the Netherlands is it’s 80 to 90% of the global economy there very few countries in the world where that would not be the case. But they’re all in the value chains of these multinationals. Increasingly, these companies make commitments that go well beyond what you call scope one and two, which is under their own control, and take responsibility of the value chains, they are able to share best practices and resources, what worked, what didn’t work with the SMEs then can pick up and just run with it. And more importantly, I think they these bigger companies are able to ultimately also work the broader changes that we need by working with civil society and governments to put the right changes in place. I mean, it is crazy to read statistics that most companies are read are paying fines, and then implementing laws that are the books to protect or help people with disabilities. And yet there is no enforcement in many parts of the world. So the system ultimately needs to work by the things. We’ve talked on this podcast, which has been very enlightening, but also you have to have the right regulations and enforcement in place at Governmental level. So you need these Valuable 500 companies to create that umbrella. And the stronger and more resilient the programs coming out of it over the years as well by the Valuable 500 members and it’s already starting to happen, the more the SMEs can pick it up. There are many other organisations that actually will take these learnings which are all in the public domain. The UN Global Compact, which I chair has 17,000 companies, many of them SMEs, the International chambers of commerce with some of the Honorary Chair of and used to chair we have 48 million companies. They are closely linked in the World Economic Forum where Caroline has launched it. All these networks are closely tied into this work and will make all of the is very accessible to the SMEs as well and allow them to implement the same things. And often what we find, like in so many other things that the SMEs are, are actually more agile and faster. And it’s just the opposite of what we think, you know, they’re actually closer to the people closer to the reality of society. And we’ve seen some stories there that I think the bigger companies could learn a lot from.
Caroline Casey: I mean, that is exactly I just thank you for saying it, because the best practice happens in the SMEs, right. So the reason we chose the Valuable 500 was because that’s where the gap was. And also to Paul’s point is where we could really look at systemic change within the bigger societal system. But please, for anybody in a smaller, medium sized organisation, that’s where the good work is being done. I don’t know what happens when the company’s growth, they just seem to lose. They seem to lose what they were when they were smaller.
Jeannette Campbell: And as, as a CEO of a small enterprise, that Odin is 10 people strong. We say we’re small but mighty, and that we hit outside our weight class. It’s, it’s first encouraging to hear this messaging. And, and I can confirm that a lot of what we do when we think about our position in thought leadership in action, and in an example, we are learning continuously from the larger companies as well, they have the ability put systems in place, structures, flows, processes, that as a small organisation that doesn’t have that kind of human capital, I it’s being built around us. And it’s on me to go and find that information, or find the things that resonate with our values and our culture, and and pull on that experience. And so I do I thank you for, for making this stage and enabling us to have this accessibility to this kind of leadership and thought example. When we, when we think about leadership, this is somewhat close to the end of our conversation, unfortunately, I feel like this could be a seven hour podcast, there’s so much to talk about. But for any business leader out there who’s listening to this episode, what is the key thing that you want them to take away from the conversation? This is the most what is the most important message and Caroline Caroline, let’s, let’s start you’re not in trouble. So Caroline, let’s start with you first. And then and then to Paul, for your perspective.
Caroline Casey: Three things just begin. Ask the questions. Talk to your people. They’re all there. They’re in the business. That’s what I would do with anything actually my business, I’d ask our team first, what would they do if there was a problem given to me reach out to other leaders who might maybe have started that journey sooner. And I think, you know, I’m going to be curious with this. Be curious and intentional about making change. Because, as I, as I’ve said, to so many times before, it’s not for them, it’s for us, and it’s for you. So I just did to start the conversation, reach out and be curious and intentional.
Paul Polman: So I would, I would just add to that is the first thing that is needed is the courage, the courage to set targets that society demands 15% of the population, many companies have two to 3% of people with disability, that’s just not serious. It’s like nearly denying that climate change exists. So if you don’t set targets of, of, I want to get to a buffet 10% I don’t think you’ll get the step changes you need. So I have that courage. I think it starts with that. I like the word courage comes from the heart, the friends, worker, and anything that goes to the heart or stick in the brain, it has to be something you really believe in. And people will notice that just to only talk to talk and not walk that talk is very dangerous. And I think you’ll do your company more damage. So that’s the first step and that stance, as Caroline says, also with awareness. The second one is really is in each of your companies and might not be all known or transparent or public, but you have people with disabilities, if you are the size of the companies that we work with, empower those groups and really, you know, like you were perhaps forced to do or did voluntarily, on creating groups around racial or LGBT or, or gender, you really have to set up something that is structural, where you give these people the agency To, to develop their plans and not patronising them, that’s quite different. And then the third thing you need to do as an organisation is to embed it in everything you do, it has to become an automatic lens. When we were hiring smallholder farmers to provide our, our agricultural materials, we wanted half of the smallholder farmers to be women. When we deal with businesses in our value chain, we wanted half of them to be business on so have a lens of disability, in all you do is a very important thing. We found out in our advertising, that we were portraying women one way, versus men that wasn’t conducive for a gender balanced organisation, we found out we had under-representation shoots on the representation of people with disability in our advertising. And anytime we adjusted that consciously, with the help of the people, actually, our business got rewarded for that, which is my final point, I understand that for some of them, this might all be a little bit too soft. But ultimately have the courage to ask yourself and be open minded to ask people to link all the things you’re doing to the business results. And ultimately, that will drive the last skeptic exalt of the system, and, and make it ingrained in the heart of your company, in your culture, where ultimately needs to be if it doesn’t arrive there, and doesn’t create ultimately, that culture of dignity, respect, equality and compassion that we talked about, you’re missing something very big, not only in your own company, but frankly, in life as well.
Dean Askin: You know, I live with a cross wired head, and I think my head’s going to explode, trying and trying to process all these amazing insights, and great insights you have both provided. But just before we go, I have to ask you one last question. And it’s kind of become my trademark question. Because I was taught back in journalism school, it’s the most important question you asked, you know, it’s been a great conversation. Have we covered all the essentials? Do you think I mean, is there anything we haven’t talked about that you think is important to mention?
Caroline Casey: I’m afraid to open my mouth. I think if there’s one thing we could remember, we’re in a different time. And social media and our digital world is we do have a chance to design inclusion in from the beginning, inclusive design as we design our more digital world. And we’re talking about Metro versus and all that kind of stuff. Do we have people with disabilities as part of the design process? Not, let’s not make the same mistake twice?
Paul Polman: Well, I want to end on the fact that we haven’t talked about the great work that you guys are doing, and was overdone. And to bring attention to this topic, it’s actually still quite difficult to get airtime. I even see it on my social media, which has quite a lot of followers. And anytime I talk about some of the wonderful things that Caroline is doing in the Valuable 500, it gets less retweets, we’d really have a thing still, that is a challenge that we should not deny, and, and like to really see the work that Caroline is doing what you’re standing for, you know, how can you create these, these broader alliances, you know, if there’s one thing that I’m passionate about in life is, is to bring people together to clearly solve things that we can do alone anymore. And I think this falls under that topic. It’s not good or bad. It’s just that we need to start with recognising that reality, and create these broader partnerships to drive the system’s changes at scale, because this requires a systems change. So I admire the companies that are on that journey. I admire the progress that is being made. But more importantly, I admire you for having the courage to have a podcast around this and, and, you know, and it’s not a surprise that it comes from Canadians, as I see in so many different areas. So, welcome to being half brothers and sisters of us Europeans.
Jeannette Campbell: I don’t I don’t even know how to reply to that.
Dean Askin: Let us know what to say. All I can say is, you know, I’m half Irish and half English. So, you know, I, I, I have this arrow
Paul Polman: line. Well, like the
Caroline Casey: lines delighted by the high fires part two. Yeah, for sure.
Dean Askin: Sometimes, sometimes I say that’s why I’m always arguing with myself. Okay.
Jeannette Campbell: Well, I just I have to say thank you for that. And, and you definitely have a very committed half brothers and sisters across the pond here. And I hope that this is the first of many conversations. I’m envisioning conversations where we’re bringing in multiple people. And if anything that we can do to provide stage to amplify, to to, to give platform to this conversation, where we can help to move the needle forward. You know, we’ll be in touch about some some of our local and our regional and our national initiatives that we’re doing that perhaps as, as our new brother and sister, you might want to start doing as well. I think that there’s so much that we all have an opportunity to learn from each other. And at the end of the day, this conversation, I think, validates everything you’ve been saying about reaching out and just asking. If Dean had not just reached out and asked for this conversation, it wouldn’t happen. And I thought, there’s no way that this conversation is going to happen. And so I’m just I’m, I’m thrilled and and over the moon into the stars, and back about it, and I, again, very glad to be part of the family. And so, Dean, I wrote to you,
Dean Askin: Well, yeah, it’s like, it’s, it’s, it’s nice to be considered part of a family. Because, you know, I, you know, I think the thing was, I guess the Canadians historically have a reputation for getting things done. Kind of thing, you know, when you I’m a history buff, and you know, when you read your World War One and World War Two history, you know, it was the Canadians who got got things done a lot of times, but anyway, you know, I know there’s a five hour time difference, and it’s getting on for dinnertime, and you must be getting hungry over there. So we’re gonna let you go so you can get on with your evening. And thanks again to both of our guests. It’s been an incredible conversation. Thank you, Caroline Casey, and Paul Polman. Thank you.
Jeannette Campbell: Thank you again from me.
Caroline Casey: Take care. Thank you, guys.
Jeannette Campbell: Well, I That’s it for this episode of You can’t spell inclusion without a D. I’m Jeanette Campbell.
Dean Askin: And I’m being asked him wherever you’re listening from in Canada or the UK or around the world. Thanks again for listening to this episode of You can’t spell inclusion without a D. Join us each episode as we have insightful conversations like this one, and explore the power of inclusion, disability and employment and the business benefits of disability inclusion. From all the angles you can’t spell inclusion without a D is produced in Toronto, Canada by the Ontario Disability Employment Network. All rights reserved. Our podcast production team, executive producer and host the NEC Campbell. Our producer is suitable associate producer and host and audio production. Dean Askin. Our podcast theme is last summer by Exxon. If you have feedback or comments about an episode, contact us at info at Odin network.com That’s info at ODE and etwork.com. Listen to You Can’t Spell Inclusion without a D on pod bean or wherever you find your favourite podcasts.
